'Replies from Mormons'

2. Matt Havell

3rd November, 2003


Subject: Webstoe


Recently I was reading through your website and the facts about the history of the Mormons. I am a Mormon. I am very  interested in why you turn facts around to make them appear evil. The religion is run by man and has it's errors. There is obviously no doubt about that fact. However, the religion is also the only religion today that carries with it the most truth that God has ever revealed to the earth. It's true, Mormonism today is different than Mormonism 150 years ago. That is unfortunate if you ask me. However, no fault can be found in Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. The church is not the same today as it was when restored to the earth but the Book of Mormon has no flaws and is only a supporter of the Holy Bible. You have spent a lot of time on your website. I think it's great that you're actively reading the Bible and putting forth much effort to help others who stumble on your website see more truth. I am letdown, however, that the facts you state about Mormonism is twisted to make it look evil. You even go as far to warn anyone considering joining the Mormon church to search your links and find out the truth about the church before they commit themselves to "years of torment and heartache."

The purpose of my writing to you is not to rebuke you from what I feel is true. I don't even care if you change your website...for truth goes on anyway. I want to let you know that I have read the Book of Mormon and pray to God about it. It many hours of study, fasting, and prayer before I had a witness from the Holy Ghost of the truthfulness of that book. My testimony may mean nothing at all to you and that's fine. I understand that.  The only reason I take time to write to you is to ask you to read the Book of Mormon with an OPEN HEART. Don't read to criticize but just read it on your own time when you're alone and have time to give it a chance.

I need to tell you, I am not a "typical Mormon." I may not believe all that the church now teaches. There is much that I could tell you about this church that you didn't know. You may be able to tell me some things as well, but there is very little that I don't already know that anti_Mormons have documentation of. I've read just about all of their accusations. some are true and some when finding the hard core truth, are just made up. You may agree with me when I say that there are very few people on this earth that don't want salvation. Mostly everybody wants to find the truth or something they can grasp onto that will bring them peace and comfort. Something they know that is true and will keep with them for this life and into the next. People, in general, want salvation and happiness. I just want to tell you that I am thankful for my beliefs and the comfort that being a "Mormon" gives me. I know of just about ALL the "strange" history of Mormons but I will never deny that the Book of Mormon is true and supports the Bible in leading and living a better life. Both books teach to follow our Savior Jesus. Not a different Jesus, the same Jesus. The one who did on the cross for all the sins of the world. Joseph Smith translated that second Testament of Jesus Christ. Sir, I dare you to read that Book of Mormon on your own time when you have time to think and search honestly. Give that book a chance to prove it's truth to you. You will find that it supports the Bible in every aspect. You're a good man for the efforts you  put into helping other see the truth. I commend you. Keep it up. Possibly you may find more truth in the Book of Mormon as you take time to pray about it. Good luck. Thanks for you time. Feel free to write if you would like to discuss anything.


Sincerely,

Matt


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14th November, 2003 - TCE replies:

Dear Matt
again we apologise for the delay in replying to your recent e-mail.
We will shortly address our main objections to Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon.
In the meantime we respond to the points you made:
Recently I was reading through your website and the facts about the history of the Mormons. I am a Mormon. I am very interested in why you turn facts around to make them appear evil.
We would be interested if you could detail ''the facts'' you claim we have ''turn[ed] around''. We will always correct any errors on our site, but are not aware of any existing. If your claims are true please respond appropriately.
The religion is run by man and has it's errors. There is obviously no doubt about that fact.
We obviously agree, but how do you believe it has changed from Joseph Smith's foundation and what makes the many serious errors any less serious today?
However, the religion is also the only religion today that carries with it the most truth that God has ever revealed to the earth. It's true, Mormonism today is different than Mormonism 150 years ago. That is unfortunate if you ask me.
Mormonism has changed constantly and was full of contradictions from its origins in the fevered imagination of Joseph Smith which, coupled with borrowing from many sources [some occultic, e.g. Freemasonry], produced an obviously false version of Christianity which any Christian familiar with the Bible could identify in a very short time. We will supply some simple tests to the claims you make.
However, no fault can be found in Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. The church is not the same today as it was when restored to the earth but the Book of Mormon has no flaws and is only a supporter of the Holy Bible.
These are the claims we will address.
You have spent a lot of time on your website. I think it's great that you're actively reading the Bible and putting forth much effort to help others who stumble on your website see more truth.
We are not content just to help people see ''more truth'', but the whole truth which we are certain has always existed to those who had access to God's Word which is found in the Bible alone.
I am let-down, however, that the facts you state about Mormonism is twisted to make it look evil. You even go as far to warn anyone considering joining the Mormon church to search your links and find out the truth about the church before they commit themselves to "years of torment and heartache."
Again, please supply details of your objections and we will address them. Facts cannot be twisted when examined logically and that is why we will limit our discussions of the ''Latter-Day Saints'' to Joseph Smith's claims concerning the Book of Mormon and one of his major doctrines which has indeed brought such ''torment and heartache'' to a great many people and continues to do so today.
The purpose of my writing to you is not to rebuke you from what I feel is true.
Thank you, Matt, but this is the point we always come to when discussing the ''Latter-Day Saints'' - you feel that it is true, but the facts say otherwise.
I don't even care if you change your website...for truth goes on anyway.
We certainly will never change anything on the site unless the facts we produce are shown not to be the truth - and this has not happened yet! Obviously, error also goes on - or do you think the multitude of other religions could also be right in some way?
I want to let you know that I have read the Book of Mormon and pray to God about it. It many hours of study, fasting, and prayer before I had a witness from the Holy Ghost of the truthfulness of that book. My testimony may mean nothing at all to you and that's fine. I understand that.
We are well aware of the power of the Mormon testimony, but we would ask: ''Is this test - of the testimony - from God or from a man used by the Devil, Joseph Smith, to deceive and lead many astray?'' The test was given by Smith and is rather like sending a fox into the chicken run to check the chickens are alright! Biblical tests are to ''make sure of all things'' (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21) and to ''check the Scriptures to see if these things are so'' (Acts 17:11), but Smith pulled the obvious ploy of trying to end the believer's ability to apply these tests by endeavouring to prove that the Bible cannot be trusted.
The only reason I take time to write to you is to ask you to read the Book of Mormon with an OPEN HEART. Don't read to criticize but just read it on your own time when you're alone and have time to give it a chance.
Some of us have read the Book of Mormon under these conditions and we acknowledge that many have found the answer you testify to but - consider this fact - those who accept the test are defying God's will and therefore have nothing to really compare it to. No orthodox Christian knowing their Bible well would ever agree to this test and subsequently fall for this deception, for they have found another answer which agrees with all of the facts of history and Scripture which prove that the ''Joseph Smith test'' is not from the God of the Bible.
I need to tell you, I am not a "typical Mormon." I may not believe all that the church now teaches. There is much that I could tell you about this church that you didn't know. You may be able to tell me some things as well, but there is very little that I don't already know that anti-Mormons have documentation of. I've read just about all of their accusations. some are true and some when finding the hard core truth, are just made up.
Obviously neither of us knows if we have more or less knowledge than the other, but the clear fact is that nobody needs to know all the facts about Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon - just the basics will persuade any mind unaffected by the deception that he perpetrated. No doubt some people are as desperate to prove the ''Latter-Day Saints'' wrong as Mormons are to accuse those who oppose their teachings of being anti-Mormon. Sadly, the very fact that you use ''anti-Mormon'' as a title for those who point out the clear and inescapable errors of Joseph Smith links you with many ''typical'' Mormons who regularly accuse others of ''making things up'' but supply no details of these supposed errors. As we have written elsewhere on our pages - ''the biggest deception of all is the failure to admit you've been deceived when the facts can lead to no other conclusion.''
You may agree with me when I say that there are very few people on this earth that don't want salvation. Mostly everybody wants to find the truth or something they can grasp onto that will bring them peace and comfort. Something they know that is true and will keep with them for this life and into the next. People, in general, want salvation and happiness.
This is actually contrary to the Biblical teaching so we cannot agree with it. The Bible says that every thought of man is towards evil (Genesis 6:5):
The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time
The result is described in Romans 1:28:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
The result of having a carnal mind is described in Ephesians 4:17-19:
17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
And the one who does not know Christ and is not guided by the Holy Spirit is described in Titus 1:15:
15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Which results in the evil thoughts Jesus exposed (
Matthew 9:3-4):
3And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. 4And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
Why do unregenerate men think in this way? Because without surrendering their lives to Christ in the ''born again'' experience of John 3:3 (3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God) we remain in the state Jesus summarised (Matthew 15:18-19):
18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Briefly, just three basic things prevent man from accepting the truth - pride (John 5:40-44), ignorance (Romans 1:18-23) and morals (John 3:19-20). They are all inter-related and no one who has not surrendered to the Christ of the Bible can escape this sin nature.

So the Bible really teaches that ''People, in general, want salvation and happiness'' - but only under their conditions! It is a Mormon error that teaches that man has his free will - we actually lost this at the fall of man, but another of Joseph Smith's contradictions teaches that this was really a ''fall upwards''!
I just want to tell you that I am thankful for my beliefs and the comfort that being a "Mormon" gives me. I know of just about ALL the "strange" history of Mormons but I will never deny that the Book of Mormon is true and supports the Bible in leading and living a better life. Both books teach to follow our Savior Jesus. Not a different Jesus, the same Jesus. The one who did [sic] on the cross for all the sins of the world. Joseph Smith translated that second Testament of Jesus Christ.
We will see shortly if there is really any comfort in being in error and following a path that leads to eternal destruction. The ''strange'' history is simply a product of the earlier errors involving the book of Mormon ''translation''. It is not the parts that support the Bible that are most important, but the false doctrines that led on to the further errors which lead people to follow ''another gospel'' (Galatians 1:6-8) and ''another Jesus'' (2 Corinthians 11:3-4):
3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
According to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young their Jesus did not die for ''ALL the sins of the world'' (ref. false Mormon ''Blood atonement'' doctrine).
Sir, I dare you to read that Book of Mormon on your own time when you have time to think and search honestly. Give that book a chance to prove it's truth to you. You will find that it supports the Bible in every aspect.
Matt, we have done all of this and will shortly prove categorically that the Book of Mormon does not support the Bible in ''every aspect.''
You're a good man for the efforts you put into helping other see the truth. I commend you. Keep it up. Possibly you may find more truth in the Book of Mormon as you take time to pray about it. Good luck. Thanks for you time. Feel free to write if you would like to discuss anything.
Thanks Matt. We appreciate the spirit in which you write. Hopefully you can see why we seriously disagree with many of your points.
To save time we will shortly send you a fuller response which addresses our main objections to the foundations of the Mormon faith.
In Christ Jesus
TCE

*****************************************************

18th November, 2003

Dear Matt


further to our first response - and since your letter is one of many which we have recently received expressing similar views - we enclose an account of correspondence which typifies the problems in accepting Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon.
[see material sent to Andrew Miller]


The total response is detailed, but gives powerful reasons why we will never be able to 'find more truth in the Book of Mormon', despite your exhortations.


We thank you again for taking the time to write to us and for the very different tone from that usually expressed by Mormons who claim we are nothing more than 'anti-Mormon' - and yet fail to answer the simple questions we have asked throughout our correspondence.


Sincerely in Christ Jesus


TCE

*****************************************************
We heard nothing more from Matt - and make just a few observations concerning this apparently 'reasonable' e-mail:

His whole attitude is very, very common amongst the young 'elders' who come to your door on their two-year 'mission.' They sound very nice and reasonable, and make the same kind of claims.  But, when you challenge them to support the 'knowledge' they claim to have, or challenge them to refute the points you have brought up with them, they never answer (even when they promise to return to your house - and even make an appointment, agreeing the time and place!) when they find you are firm in your faith. 

Jehovah's Witnesses - the other cult more persistent in coming to your door than any other bar the Mormons - are identical in this approach, but tend to believe they have put their faith in superior Biblical 'knowledge' (through a dreadful mis-translation of John 17:3)! 

Another Mormon method used in 'answer' to some queries, such as the fact that the 'everlasting covenant' on polygamy did not last forever (except among the 'true' Mormons of polygamous Utah who continue to take this seriously, even if the LDS of Salt Lake City fail to follow their 'prophet's' teaching), is to boldly state 'you do not have the knowledge to understand this doctrine!'

Again, an appeal to superior 'knowledge' - this time of a 'spiritual, burning-in-the-bosom' type, and requiring absolutely no facts to support it.  Truly, the
'Emperor's Clothes' - magic, invisible and, of course, only seen by the 'spiritually-minded' of the cult.

Sadly, all this means that the cult follower has absorbed (taken on) the spiritual leadings and characteristics of his leader:  Joseph Smith was a lying deceiver who conned the innocent out of their possessions by using occult methods of 'divination' (forbidden by the God of the Bible:
Leviticus 19:31; 20:27; 1 Samuel 28:3-7; Acts 16:16) for buried treasure and told massive lies to invent one of the richest religions the world has ever seen.

Therefore, do not be surprised when his followers do the same - it is the result of the leading of the same spirit that possessed the founder - a lying spirit!

But do not expect all Mormons to lie like this (some are better at it than others and, as with this e-mail, often appear genuine, most of them not knowing they are being led by a 'lying spirit'!).  Many Mormons have been taken out of Christian denominations and, despite their Biblical ignorance (
2 Peter 3:16-17) that caused them to accept the contradictory and deceiving doctrines of Mormonism, they retain elements of Christian truth that makes them appear Christian.  They are, in turn, deceived by the Mormons' appearance of loving, caring, 'saint-like' behaviour.

None of this alters the fact that the 'contemporary Christian church' often pays little attention, or enough love for their neighbour who may be trapped in such a cult, to go out of their way to expose error and demonstrate the Biblical love of the True Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ (
Jude 20-23):


'20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22  And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.'

As Jack Sparks wrote many years ago: 'The cults are the unpaid bills of the church!'

Topics Discussed on pages responding to Mormonism:

Book of Mormon versus The Bible

Doctrinal Errors Resulting

Polygamy

Grace versus Works

Baptism as 'Work'

Justification by Faith Alone?

Another Christ?

Just 'Believe'?

Possessions Hinder

Faith without Works is Dead?

Salvation a Gift - not by Works!

Saved at the point of Faith!

Water Baptism-Spiritual Baptism

The Mormon Christ

Blood Atonement

Sons of (which) god-'Adam-god'?

Universal Salvation!


Mormon 'Second Chance Theology'!

You Must Be Born Again - Again?!

God vs 'council of gods on Kolob'

Polygamy - 'restoring' an error!

Mormon 'god' can only organise!

Mormon evil vs Biblical view

Tests for a 'prophet'

Mormon 'testimony' vs Facts

Compare 'testimonies'?!

Smith's Occult Activity

'Familiar Spirit' of Mormonism

My Opinion versus Your Opinion?

A Counterfeit Spirit

Wicca, 'Folk Magic' & Mormonism

LDS attack Old Testament

Jeremiah 36 exposes LDS claims

Anachronism exposing BOM

'Gilgamish Epic' vs Noah

Noah's Ark vs BOM vessels!

Polygamy - no excuse for Smith!

Confusion of Mormonism

Mormon invention when challenged

Mormon bluster when caught out!

Problem with experiential belief!

Problem with no absolutes!

Truth is as each perceives it?

Wicca & Karma & Reincarnation

'Isms' usurp God's Word

Failings of the Mormon 'gospel'

A Better Way - the True Christ!

There are errors in the Bible!

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